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Date:	11/9/99 4:02:37 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 9 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1330<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
RE: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
RE: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
Re: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
Re : Zhodani Government<BR>
Threatening Worlds (was Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT])<BR>
Nth Provincial Flamewar<BR>
Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:12:33 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani and Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Although I've learned recently to reject the illusory value of<BR>
"interpretation" as practiced by whiny liberal pseudo-intellectuals, I<BR>
think we may have a case of it here.  I'd read those examples as<BR>
describing how a prole was 'zotted' to become more dynamic and active in<BR>
society, and begin engaging in life more fully.<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Just to make things more interesting, it's probably a little bit of both -<BR>
thus the variance in interpretations.<BR>
<BR>
The Zho nobles have decided what are appropriate avenues of expression<BR>
for proles, and make efforts to redirect the prole's interests and energies<BR>
into such avenues. A prole may be very active and dynamic, but all that<BR>
energy is carefully directed in directions that are harmless (or, more<BR>
likely, helpful) to the state, rather than in directions that may make <BR>
the Nobles uncomfortable. Thus the prole will always be passive in<BR>
terms of the status quo, no matter how apparently active the person<BR>
may be.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, more recalcitrant troublemakers may not have as much<BR>
energy or dynamism left once the Tvarchedl are done with them.<BR>
<BR>
I think the original Zhodani aliens supplement mentioned something <BR>
like the Zho were at once worse than the Imperials could imagine, and<BR>
better than any Imperial thought possible, both at the same time.<BR>
I like the idea of a human race being alien enough for that to be true.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:24:48 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
> The Proles get a "vote" by outnumbering the Nobles by several orders<BR>
> of magnitude. They are induced by various means to "vote" not to <BR>
> overthrow the government, the mechanism of this vote is that they<BR>
> do not overthrow the government.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, that's not true.  The nobles are some 5% of the Zhodani population<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
OK, it's nineteen to one, instead of 100 to one. Give each side clubs<BR>
and dump them in an arena, which side are you going to bet on?<BR>
<BR>
OK, the Nobles, but only because of vile Zhodani mind-tricks...;-)<BR>
<BR>
Or is the 5% based on a character generation system? (Recalling how<BR>
many nobles and admirals the CT Traveller Chargen indicated were in<BR>
the Imperial population... ;-)  )<BR>
<BR>
Anthony again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
There are plenty of high-stress jobs which are fairly meaningless and won't necessarily be done by Intendants or Nobles.  For example, firefighting.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
These jobs also tend to have very clear stress-inducers. "Oh My Dear<BR>
Ghod, I'm Going To Burn To Death In There" is a lot more straightforward<BR>
than "If I Can't Motivate This Work Staff Somehow, Upper Management<BR>
Won't Give Me The Raise I Need To Win The Heart Of The Fair Rosinde,<BR>
Who Is The Trophy Wife Every Corporate Executive Would Kill For, And<BR>
I Haven't Won Any Alpha Male Contests Lately, So My Opinions At<BR>
Meetings Aren't Getting Taken Seriously...."<BR>
<BR>
Anthony again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
>the benevolent Zho idea is that the Zho's are supposed<BR>
> to have the information needed to be better at it.<BR>
<BR>
The evidence is that they're right.<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
I think there can be some interesting questions as to whether they<BR>
are right due to sufficient knowledge, or right due to sufficient power.<BR>
The presented results are hard to argue with, but the results do not<BR>
necessarily flow from the reasons given by the Zhodani government.<BR>
<BR>
The answer is almost certainly a little bit of both. They know a lot,<BR>
but not as much as they think they do - and some of their theories, <BR>
though certainly not all, work because they can *make* them work.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:39:35 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
I've read the Aliens Supplement on them, and the bits mentioned in<BR>
the Library Data Supplement N-Z, and the mentions in MegaTraveller.<BR>
Beyond that, I'm interpolating for the sheer entertainment value of it.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
What would be done with the poor b____d is that he'd be moved into a job<BR>
more suited to his talents/limits. They're not bending peopel to fit the<BR>
job, but the jobs to fit the people.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
That is in direct opposition to the one example (from the Zhodani aliens<BR>
supplement) of how the Tvarchedl "helps" a dissatisfied prole. He isn't<BR>
re-evaluated and moved to another job, his current role is accepted as<BR>
the right one and he is adjusted to be happier in it.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
There are people who are naturally more or less able to deal with stress;<BR>
they will be steered into the jobs that generate the stress. I can't think<BR>
of a job that someone, somewhere doesn't find enjoyable. <BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
I agree that the Zho should be better at putting people in jobs suited<BR>
to them. Now what happens when the needs of society (that is, the <BR>
Nobles) doesn't require job types in the same proportions that people are<BR>
suited for? Do the Nobles change the list of needed jobs, or change<BR>
the people that are needed to do the job?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
The Zhodani mind control, other than described in Impy agitprop, isn't<BR>
oriented so much to coerce behavior, as to find the best fit between prole<BR>
and life. Think of it as extremely effective, cradle-to-grave<BR>
psychotherapy, without all the California-style psychobabble bs.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
I think the truth is somewhere between "It's a round peg, we just need<BR>
to find a round hole" and "It's a peg, we can hit it hard enough to force<BR>
it into whatever hole we need to put it in". The last is a bit harder on the<BR>
peg, of course.<BR>
<BR>
I've always read the Tvarchedl's job as fixing people, instead of fixing <BR>
people's lives. Of course, they are described as firefighters - they're<BR>
not handling the people who other arms of Zhodani gov't/society *did*<BR>
place properly in life, they're handling the ones that either needed<BR>
special help or are in some ways unhelpable.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Where is it stated or implied that proles have a limited world view? They<BR>
are limited in the positions they can attain, but by the time they're<BR>
adults, they _know_ it's because of their inherent limitations, not that<BR>
they're being 'denied' a chance. They _like_ what they're doing and how<BR>
they live.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Their limitations aren't inherent, their limitations are *imposed*. They<BR>
like what they're doing because the oligarchy wants them to like it,<BR>
and is capable of *making* them like it. Their goals are limited and<BR>
channeled by their masters, thus I see their worldview as limited.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying their society doesn't work, or is inherently evil. I don't<BR>
think I'd want to live in it, and I'd be leery of visiting it. I guess that<BR>
makes me a good Imperial citizen. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:03:55 PST<BR>
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>The Roc writes:<BR>
><snipped><BR>
> >I can see a heavy-lift Grav-Recovery vehicle (similar to a large<BR>
> >tilt-tray) land in front of a disabled grav-tank, the recovery<BR>
> >crew lifting it on hydraulic lifts, fitting wheeled jigs front<BR>
> >and back (or the tray itself may have rollers?), then winching it<BR>
> >on board.  Once secured, the recovery crew mount the recovery<BR>
> >vehicle and diddly bop off to rear area facilities to repair the<BR>
> >disabled vehicle?<BR>
><BR>
>	I could see this at about TL 8, but at slightly higher tech<BR>
>	I would expect the recovery vehicle to just pick up the<BR>
>	damaged AFV with cables or grappling gear of some sort.  At<BR>
>	very high tech, gravetics would be used to lift the vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
My assumption was that the ARV would be the same TL as the disabled vehicle. <BR>
However, it is certainly possible for a TL 8 society to buy some TL 10 grav <BR>
tanks but rely on (cheap) TL 8 ARVs.<BR>
<BR>
Note that a grav ARV doesn't actually have to land in order to recover <BR>
another vehicle; this can be important in some situations.<BR>
<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:02:47 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
At 09:44 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> > Hey, I could do this!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "They all died"<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There, that's three words and fits any Canon setting... :)<BR>
><BR>
>...and in fact is 66% identical to a published Canon story.  See<BR>
>_Twilight's Peak_. :)<BR>
<BR>
That's why I changed it to "They"...  I originally put down "We."  However, <BR>
it does substantially change the plot and themes of the story.  Not to <BR>
mention the characters.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:07:02 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
At 12:04 PM 11/9/99 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>I think you need to retune the parameters on your synopsis generator.<BR>
<BR>
What synopsis?  That's the whole story!  ( He did say 3-7000 words...).<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, yes I am familiar with Twilight Peak.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
	     Gearhead-in-Training<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium<BR>
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+)<BR>
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes,  http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
Traveller WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:08:11 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
At 08:31 AM 11/9/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >Go ahead and laugh, human. The Electron Liberation Front will have it's<BR>
> >revenge!<BR>
><BR>
>ELF, eh? I thought they were limited to aquatic operations.<BR>
<BR>
Mmm... Elf...  The other white meat....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:03:35 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
It looks like frame information on a secure site. Do you have frames<BR>
switched off or something? I will check the site out and see what I can find<BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Shimmergloom<BR>
Sent: 07 November 1999 04:39<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:12 PM 11/5/99 -0500, Sword Worlder wrote:<BR>
> >I asked Marc and he said it was alright to begin publicizing the new<BR>
site.<BR>
> >He has quite a bit of the work completed and I'm sure he would welcome<BR>
> >feedback on what he is doing.  I for one would be interested to hear the<BR>
> >feedback and discussion happen right here on the TML, unless you think<BR>
that<BR>
> >would needlessly clog the list with on-topic posts ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >http://members.aol.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I looked at the T5 page and got the following... what ever this is.  I am<BR>
using<BR>
netscape.  Any one got a clue?<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:58:49 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
Hope you don't mind, but I've corrected the spelling in the subject line.<BR>
<BR>
Going for broke with an answer then. Evolutionary rates of change don't<BR>
depend on time as such (we have been around unchanged for about 50,000<BR>
years - around 2,500 generations). What it depends on is the rate of change<BR>
of nuclotide structure and both the selection pressure and the evolutionary<BR>
pressure on the organisms concerned. Together with the generation rate of<BR>
the organism, that will give you a rate of change due to evolutionary<BR>
selection. If you are interested in the maths, its fairly simple and I'm<BR>
sure you can get it from most biology books. If you just want an example,<BR>
one follows.<BR>
<BR>
Assume the ship is from Earth to Alpha Centuri and travels at an average of<BR>
0.1c including acceleration and deceleration at either end of the trip (so<BR>
takes 40 years to make the journey). Forty years is less than two full<BR>
generations for humans so people will still be people when they get there -<BR>
they may be socially strange, but they will be biologically fine, even if<BR>
there are many mutations in the children. Remember too that most mutations<BR>
die in the womb, so there are more likely to be only a few fully human<BR>
children and perhaps one or two mutations than anything else. On the other<BR>
hand, the hydroponics tank has been growing vegetables for forty generations<BR>
(one per year) assuming they grow from harvested seed rather than seed<BR>
brought from Earth. If the mutation rate is 10% (and that is massive) then<BR>
in the second generation one plant in ten will be a freak. If the selection<BR>
pressure (how many of the "normal" plants die) is also a massive 10%, then<BR>
the number of freaks is near enough one in nine. Even with the 90% failure<BR>
rate for mutations (and that is a low number) then we have one successful<BR>
freak for every ninety plants.<BR>
<BR>
By the third year, maybe 19% of the plants would be mutations - but they may<BR>
not be successful. The evolutionary pressure (the number of possible ways to<BR>
make food and breed successfully) will decide how many of these are going to<BR>
breed next time. If the pressure is a massive 25% (which means there had to<BR>
be a serious disaster on the ship) then we will have just short of 5% of the<BR>
plants in the third year as freaks. At the end of the trip, there will be<BR>
new breeds of vegetables on board - provided the humans don't interfere (fat<BR>
chance).<BR>
<BR>
Now the interesting bit. Those forty years amount to 350,000 generations for<BR>
the bacteria on board - more for the viruses brought by "accident" in the<BR>
crew and plants. Given that the changing environment around the ship gives<BR>
more opportunities to the bugs to breed, selection pressure will be low. On<BR>
the other hand, having lots of places and creatures to breed in means that<BR>
evolutionary pressure will be large. With the increased mutation rate, there<BR>
is plenty of time to develop new species (rather than new breeds, like the<BR>
plants).<BR>
<BR>
So, after forty years, the ship lands and sows the original 100 species of<BR>
plants plus around 40 new breeds that have developed on the ship.<BR>
Unfortunately, the Saline Nutrient bacterium that developed in the<BR>
hydroponics system appears to have taken well in the shallow seas of the new<BR>
planets as does the Duct Virus that developed on the large colonies of soil<BR>
bacteria, similar to the skin bacterium Staph Aureus, in the life support<BR>
plant. People are still suffering from the Ship Flu that swept through<BR>
passenger cargo section three a few years ago. There are no midget people,<BR>
winged men, talking flowers or any of the other things I suspect you want.<BR>
To get those, we need to move the people into the same position as the<BR>
bacteria and, based on known human speciation, we need a journey of<BR>
approximately 30,000 years to see much change.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Shimmergloom<BR>
Sent: 06 November 1999 03:50<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Evelotion and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yea, that's what I meant.  Sorry, I was tired when I wrote that.   The<BR>
setting I have in mind is a colony ship that was lost by it's people.  The<BR>
party finds it and discovers a completely unique ecosystem on board.<BR>
Complete with dangerous microbes, sophist life forms and complex social<BR>
system.  The hydroponics has<BR>
gone so far out of control to have formed a soil layer on the deck and the<BR>
cold sleep for the wild life failed long enough ago to have allowed them to<BR>
have evolved into new species (SP?)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Shimmergloom writes:<BR>
> > So, how long would it take it take a generation ship that got knocked<BR>
off<BR>
> > course to develop an entirely unique echo system?<BR>
><BR>
> Assuming you mean ecosystem, it depends on what you mean by 'entirely<BR>
unique'. For larger lifeforms, speciation should take in the tens or<BR>
hundreds of thousands of years, less significant changes would occur faster.<BR>
It's pretty unlikely that a generation ship would remain viable anywhere<BR>
near that long, however.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
"How much XP do we get if we join the bandits?"<BR>
<BR>
shimmer@mhtc.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:00:51 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote"<BR>
> <pro commonwealth><BR>
> </pro commonwealth><BR>
<BR>
Hey, as much as I appreciate the sentiment, I don't know why you're<BR>
so pro-commonwealth, as you almost gave Her Majesty the boot a few<BR>
days ago I hear.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: A planet has a referendum to remove themselves from Imperial <BR>
rule and to become an independent, sovereign state... would the <BR>
Imperial Palace be nice and send diplomats or not so nice and send<BR>
in thew shock troops? And would they wait until after the referendum?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:11:11 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>So, after forty years, the ship lands and sows the original 100 species of<BR>
>plants plus around 40 new breeds that have developed on the ship.<BR>
>Unfortunately, the Saline Nutrient bacterium that developed in the<BR>
>hydroponics system appears to have taken well in the shallow seas of the new<BR>
>planets as does the Duct Virus that developed on the large colonies of soil<BR>
>bacteria, similar to the skin bacterium Staph Aureus, in the life support<BR>
>plant. People are still suffering from the Ship Flu that swept through<BR>
>passenger cargo section three a few years ago. There are no midget people,<BR>
>winged men, talking flowers or any of the other things I suspect you want.<BR>
>To get those, we need to move the people into the same position as the<BR>
>bacteria and, based on known human speciation, we need a journey of<BR>
>approximately 30,000 years to see much change.<BR>
<BR>
Granted this handwave is overused...but...Instead of a RoM ship, why not <BR>
make it one Grandfather's ships?  It could then be built as big as you <BR>
want, have all sort of interesting stuff in it, and considering that the <BR>
BEM in charge of it was into genetics...well, you get the idea...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:04:22 +0000<BR>
From: Hakan Koseoglu <hkose@ada.com.tr><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> We used to have a guy in downtown Portland who had a quarterstaff all<BR>
> the time. He used it to assist in skating (old style skates, not<BR>
Strange story...<BR>
One day I carried a katana walking to a friend. I can say, that day I<BR>
was stared at a lot!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:12:54 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT]<BR>
<BR>
At 04:00 PM 11/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote"<BR>
> > <pro commonwealth><BR>
> > </pro commonwealth><BR>
><BR>
>Hey, as much as I appreciate the sentiment, I don't know why you're<BR>
>so pro-commonwealth, as you almost gave Her Majesty the boot a few<BR>
>days ago I hear.<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: A planet has a referendum to remove themselves from Imperial<BR>
>rule and to become an independent, sovereign state... would the<BR>
>Imperial Palace be nice and send diplomats or not so nice and send<BR>
>in thew shock troops? And would they wait until after the referendum?<BR>
<BR>
They might not send in the Drop Troops, but they would certainly hold an <BR>
"unannounced fleet exercise" that happens to have most of the high profile <BR>
subsector fleet assets involved...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:24:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
> It looks like frame information on a secure site. Do you have frames<BR>
> switched off or something? I will check the site out and see what I<BR>
> can find out.<BR>
<BR>
I also get a load of gibberish when I try to access the page on T5. I do<BR>
not have frames support switched off. Anybody has a clue of what's<BR>
wrong? I don't...<BR>
<BR>
I am using Netscape Communicator 4.51<BR>
<BR>
Below is the first part of the gibberish I get at<BR>
/Traveller/T550-00.html<BR>
<BR>
2H%ZV}x*sZymJ:OXGS<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
After about fifteen lines like that (but longer), I find what looks like<BR>
the main page, but without any text below the header (Traveller5).<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:00:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Go ahead and laugh, human. The Electron Liberation Front will have it's<BR>
>>revenge!<BR>
><BR>
> ELF, eh? I thought they were limited to aquatic operations.<BR>
<BR>
Even now our operatives are spreading across your country....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:15:31 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
<BR>
Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:18:38 -0700, cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
<BR>
>>As the fuel is used in a ships fuel tank, what goes in its place?<BR>
>><BR>
>>If air is used then it would have to be generated, or air pressure would fall<BR>
>>dramatically.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Vacuum would cause the remaining fuel to boil.<BR>
>><BR>
>>What else?<BR>
><BR>
>The walls of a fuel tank actually consists of two layers: a rigid outer<BR>
>layer and a flexible, collapsible inside layer. As the fuel is expended,<BR>
>the inner layer begins to collapse, leaving vacuum between it and the<BR>
>outside layer. When the tank gets filled, the inner layer expands again<BR>
>to fill the inside...<BR>
<BR>
You don't need to borrow.  Just let a bit of the fuel boil to fill<BR>
space.  The only upshot is that when the tanks are "empty" there will<BR>
be a small amount of residual hydrogen gas....<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:02:18 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Zhodani Government<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
><BR>
I can only go on what is in the material available to me. (BtC, MT Imp<BR>
Encyclo/Ref's Companion).<BR>
    How do we know that the various encyclopaedia entries aren't written<BR>
by Zho sympathisers?<BR>
<BR>
> What would be done with the poor b____d is that he'd be moved into a job<BR>
> more suited to his talents/limits. They're not bending peopel to fit the<BR>
> job, but the jobs to fit the people.<BR>
><BR>
Environment v. heredity (choose your own hoary chestnut)...<BR>
I would suspect that a little bit of both would occur.<BR>
People are selected for their occupation/niche and their position<BR>
optimised for the strengths and weaknesses of the 'applicant'.<BR>
<BR>
> They are limited in the positions they can attain, but by the time they're<BR>
> adults, they _know_ it's because of their inherent limitations, not that<BR>
> they're being 'denied' a chance. They _like_ what they're doing and how<BR>
> they live.<BR>
><BR>
<'We' mode><BR>
'All praise to the Benefactor!'<BR>
</'We' mode><BR>
<BR>
Call me cynical, but no system is _that_ perfect.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:10:49 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Threatening Worlds (was Re: Re: Coke for Kiri [OT])<BR>
<BR>
At 04:12 PM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>ObTrav: A planet has a referendum to remove themselves from Imperial<BR>
>>rule and to become an independent, sovereign state... would the<BR>
>>Imperial Palace be nice and send diplomats or not so nice and send<BR>
>>in thew shock troops? And would they wait until after the referendum?<BR>
><BR>
>They might not send in the Drop Troops, but they would certainly hold an <BR>
>"unannounced fleet exercise" that happens to have most of the high profile <BR>
>subsector fleet assets involved...<BR>
><BR>
>Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
        Which would be worse than a waste of jump fuel.  Unless the<BR>
intention was to glass a couple of cities from orbit, no amount of<BR>
troopships and Tigresses are going to actually threaten any world worth<BR>
threatening.  I've done the economics on it, and it is *heavily* in favor of<BR>
the defender.<BR>
        In fact, I think one of the biggest reasons the Villani were not<BR>
above glassing a rebellious or resistant world was that it was easier to do<BR>
that then take it in useable condition.  It also got the message out loud<BR>
and clear that "once usually means twice...  don't be twice...."<BR>
        <BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:52:23 -0600<BR>
From: "Kurtis Rodgers" <kurtis@fastlane.net><BR>
Subject: Nth Provincial Flamewar<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:10:20 -0700 (MST)<BR>
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
> Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
><BR>
<snee-yip><BR>
><BR>
> WHO you callin' _texan_ <spit>???!!!<BR>
><BR>
> :-P<BR>
><BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
>               ^^^^^^^<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
SNICKER!<BR>
<BR>
I think I speak for all of us when I say that the State of Texas finds your<BR>
'perdicament' quite amusing.   : P<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav (no, really!):  A tiny group of separatists, consisting mainly of<BR>
lunatic discontents, tax dodgers and self-taught lawyers, insist that the<BR>
treaties making their planet/nation/enclave part of the Imperium are<BR>
invalid.  They further insist they are the actual legitimate governing body<BR>
of their planet/nation/enclave, even to the point of setting up 'embassies'<BR>
and generating official-looking red tape to back their claims.  They have<BR>
all granted themselves high ranking titles in this imaginary state (the<BR>
twitchy triggerman is the General of the planet/nation/enclave defense<BR>
force, their leader is the President/PM/Grand Poobah of the<BR>
planet/nation/enclave, etc).  They view the Imperium as a occupying 'foreign<BR>
power', and are devilishly clever at using the 3I's own bureaucracy against<BR>
itself.  Despite causing millions/billions/trillions of credit fraud,<BR>
authorities are hampered in their efforts against these separatists because<BR>
_nobody_ takes them seriously.<BR>
<BR>
The logical extension of this idea is the 'true' imperial government,<BR>
claiming that Cleon's Articles of Restoration are invalid, and that they are<BR>
the _real_ Imperium.  Of course, in M:0, this might actually be arguable.<BR>
 : )<BR>
<BR>
Kurtis<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 23:56:59 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:15:31 -0800, "David P. Summers"<BR>
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>The walls of a fuel tank actually consists of two layers: a rigid outer<BR>
>>layer and a flexible, collapsible inside layer. As the fuel is expended,<BR>
>>the inner layer begins to collapse, leaving vacuum between it and the<BR>
>>outside layer. When the tank gets filled, the inner layer expands again<BR>
>>to fill the inside...<BR>
><BR>
>You don't need to borrow.  Just let a bit of the fuel boil to fill<BR>
>space.  The only upshot is that when the tanks are "empty" there will<BR>
>be a small amount of residual hydrogen gas....<BR>
<BR>
Running on fumes?<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1330<BR>
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